meganmay

The truck was running in park, went to put it into drive and it died. It cranks over and wont start. Put gas into carb didnt start, no spark. Replaced dist. cap, rotor, and ignition manual. Still it just cranks. Fuel gauge says full now instead of half, and the batter gague does not show power when key is on even though engine can still crank and lights still work. So it cranks with no fule or spark and the gauges are messed up. Any ideas? If it is a bad fuel pump why would it not spark or run when we manually put fuel into it? Not a bad starter because it cranks over. Bad wires, but why then no fuel? Electrical problem with the signal to the fuel pump and ignition module? A fuse or relay? Please help!! Truck is in the woods and snow!!

emilio garcia

sounds like youre distrubtor is not truning or timing chain is out. easy way to find out is trun engine over to tdc if rotor does not point to number one wire replace timing chain and both gears. good luck let me know

mack1

Hi meganmay and welcome to TSF,

In the woods and snow is a bad place to work. You need to determine if the problem is fuel or ignition. Not likely both.

For ignition test, pull a spark plug and lay it on the metal engine block. Connect the plug wire to it. Get someone to try the starter while you watch the spark gap. You should see a spark across the gap that is blue. If no spark, the problem is ignition, so do some more work there. If there is spark but it is a weak red spark, then it is iffy. (might ignite fuel mixture and might not)

For the fuel test, use spray can starter fluid. I recall that the 95 model is fuel injected, not carb. Pull the large intake hose loose at the intake manifold and spray the starter fluid in there. Use short bursts, don't fowl out the spark plugs with fuel. If it trys to start, the problem is in the fuel system. You should be able to hear the intank mounted fuel pump run for about 1 and 1/2 seconds each time you turn the ignition switch from off to on (not all the way to start) Open the door, lean out, and listen as you do the off/on trick. The pump only runs continuosly when the engine starts.

If you can determine which, ignition or fuel, is the problem, we can better help you.

If you could get a friend to tow you out of the snow and woods, it would sure be easier for you....but I guess you already know that.

Best regards,
Mack1

meganmay

We tried ti get it to fire by manualy putting fuel in and it didnt work. Checked for spark already and there is none at all. When we crank it over and do not hear the fuel pump and the rotar has turned/ is in a different spot after it was cranked over. It was running in park, then when we switched it to drive it died.

Thanks,

Megan

mack1

Hi Megan,

I think you did the fuel test wrong. At the ignition switch, only move the key from Off to On. NOT all the way to start. You can't hear the pump if the starter is turning the engine over. Tell everyone to be quiet and listen for the pump under the truck where the tank is. It only pumps for about a second and a half then stops even while the key is at ON. Turn the key back off then back on to get another another short pumping action from the pump.

On the rotor position. It turned and that is good. Did you look at the spark plug gap to see if it was sparking while the distributor was assembled and the engine was turning over?
The plug must be laying on metal with the plug wire attached. Watch the plug gap to see the spark as the engine is trying to start. Pressure will come spewing out of the empty spark plug hole as you do this test. If you have a spare plug, just use it. Just remove one of the plug wires and connect it to the spare.

Now, another way to do emilio's rotar position test.
1. Remove the spark plug from number one cylinder's location. Number one is the cylinder on the driver's side at the front of the engine.
2. Mark the position of number one's plug wire on the distributor under the cap. Remove the distributor cap.
3. Put your finger in the spark plug hole and get someone to jog the engine over (short jogs). You will feel the pressure pushing against your finger and spewing past it when the piston is moving up in the compression stroke.
4. At the very top of that stroke, look for the timing mark that Emilio mentioned. It is on the harmonic balance at the bottom of the engine. The harmonic balance is behind the very bottom pulley. There will be a metal tab or pointer that extends over or points to the balance wheel. One of the marks is top dead center (the other marks near it are for degrees before top dead center)
5. At this point, look at the rotar button and see if it is just reaching the point where you made the mark on the distributor housing at number one's wire. If they match, the timing should be OK.

Hope this helps. I probably told you some things that you already knew.

Post back and tell us how it goes.

Best regards,
Mack1

meganmay

What would cause the timing to be off if it just was running before we shifted to drive? We were driving around for 2hrs parked for a few seconds, then put it back into to drive and it killed it. I will get timing checked today though, and we did put the wire up to the block and checked for spark several times before and after the repairs and still no spark.

SABL

I think the lack of spark is the issue...don't know the mileage you have.

I will have to say that in all my years I have rarely seen timing issues unless the timing is run by a belt. Your timing is run by chain and gears....unless GM is using nylon gears I doubt you have a timing problem.

My vehicle has 236K miles and timing is the last thing I worry about. It is a '95 also and what I am concerned with is the electrical connections. Seeing how you are dealing with moisture and snow the first check is with connections at the distributor... the 3 wire lead is from the Camshaft Position Sensor and should be checked along with the connection at the CPS itself.

I have had problems at the Power Distribution Box as well...

It could be the coil....

What I am going by is the assertation of lack of spark.

I would follow Mack1's advice for a place to start. He is a very trusted friend.

Keep us informed and good luck,
SABL

mack1

Hi Megan,

Till now, I have tried to come up with tests that you can perform in the field without having to crawl under the truck. In the woods and in show is not a good place to trouble shoot major electrical problems. I can think of no relation with shifting from park to drive that would cause failure of fuel and ignition. It could be that snow got into the wiring under the truck and shorted something out. (like the fuel pump) Hard to look at that in the snow. If the fuel pump worked, you could rule most of that out. If it would have started with spray starter fluid, that would rule out all the ignition problems. If you had a weak fuel pump, you could try hitting the bottom of the gas tank with a rubber hammer or flat board and cause it to pump harder. Low fuel pressure will keep it from running. The spray starter fluid would have given a good indication of that without measuring the fuel pressure with a guage. The fact that the rotor button moved when you cranked the engine over says that your timing chain is not broken, but might have slipped several notches. That will be born out if the rotor didnot point to number one cylinder at top dead center on the compression stroke.

Trouble shooting your problem is the best way to fix it. Changing parts is expensive and often of no help and can cause you induce some new problems. You may have some blown fuses. If you do, that might point to the problem. Pull them out one at a time and look at them. You can see the little metal strip in the plastic fuses. If you can see that the strip is in tact, the fuse is most likely good. If you have a volt/ohm meter, you can check the resistance of the fuses to make sure. Zero ohms would, of course, mean that the fuse was OK.

If you would like to pursue trouble shoot the electrical circuits, you will need electrical prints. If you could post some of them here, we can tell you where to measure for voltages. You would be able to go to the coil circuit and see if you have the proper voltages there to get spark. If not, where to measure back upstream to find the problem.

Let us know what you find.

Wishing you the best of luck,
Mack1

meganmay

Thanks for the help. The truck is lifted so no problem getting under it lol. I got it towed home today. I will have to do checks on it tomorrow since its below 32 out here right now. The milegage on the truck is less thank 130k and the guy I bought it from said that it was not the original motor.
Things to check tomorrow is to make sure that the timing is not off. Check to see if fuel pump engages when key is turned on but not in start position. See if the distributor/coil is getting power when the key is on. Thanks for all the help and I will keep you posted on what the results are for tomorrow.

meganmay

Well I still dont know whats wrong with it. Fuel pump doesnt engage when key is on. Got into some wiring under stearing colom and found a wire that was burnt, fixed that, still doesnt work. Thinking it might be the ignition wiring. Who knows what to do.

mack1

Hi megan,

Looks like you have more that one problem. Do you or your associate know how to use a volt/ohm meter? You might be right that the problem is at or near the igniton switch. The wire that burned....did you smell or see smoke when you shifted from park to drive back when the truck died? If not, did it occur while your were working on the truck? The wire number and color of the wire would normally show on the prints where the wire came form and where it went. Note that not many wires can be shorted out to the extent that they burn the wires. Most wires are protected by fuses.

We need more information to help you. Electrical prints are almost required to find the problem. On few occasions can you find the trouble without them.

To find electrical prints, go to the local library and see if they have a copy of the motor manual for your truck. You can get a maintenance manual for it at your local parts store. You can go to Alldata and subscribe to their service. Here is their link:

http://www.alldatadiy.com/buy/index.html

It will cost $26.95 if you are not already subscribed, else it would be $16.95. (they went up a dollar since I used them last)

My local parts place sells Haynes repair manuals, so I use them. ( I don't recall the price) The best source for electrical prints has been alldata for my vehicles. You can also get all the parts locations and other data there. You can download the prints and other data in jpg format. The data will be specifically for your make and model, so if you subscribe, be sure to enter the right data.

You can get an inexpensive volt/ohm meter (multimeter) at your local discount store for about $15.00.

I'll be glad to help you trouble shoot your electrical system and give you guidance on using the multimeter if you need. I can also give you instructions on how to post the prints here.

Best regards,
Mack1

SABL

Hiya Mack1

I just picked up a manual for my Cherokee..... it was a Chilton.

List=$25.09
My price=$19.59

I expect most manuals will be about $20

A repair manual is very helpful and well worth the cost. I could have repaired my Jeep without one but I like to have the reference material at hand just in case.

mack1

Hi SABL,

Got any prints you could post to help Megan?
Also, how good are the electric prints in the Chilton manuals? I haven't used one of their's in years. I miss the old blue motor manuals you used to be able to buy, don't remember who published them.

Have a nice day,
Mack1

SABL

Don't think I have any Chevy manuals....I'll look.

I'm a little early today..... haven't read the police reports yet.

I'm thinking on what might be the issue with Meganmay's truck. Don't know if it might be the connections at the solenoid or if something disturbed the ignition wires in the area of the shifter linkage.

SABL

Hey Mack1

Just looked at the Chilton book..... pretty nice elec diagrams. Might need a magnifying glass.

I did find a Chevy van manual that covers the '95 models. They generally use the same color codes in the circuitry, I think. I'll double check the diagrams of the vans and the pu's and see if the same devices use the same colors. I might be wrong

Most of my manuals are Ford..... GM got put of my price-range years ago. The last new van I bought was in '93:
Chevy van= $21,000+
Ford van= $15,000 after rebate and negotiations

I'll see if I can find some clues for Meganmay.... I'll be back

OOPS almost forgot..... I do remember the old Motor's Manuals. Big hardbacks.... last ones I seen was from the '60's. Lotsa fingerprints on them.....from the oil and grease

mack1

Hi SABL,

I bet they will work. If Megan hasn't given up on us, maybe we can save her a few bucks and use those. Lets wait for her reply.

Good show and bests regards,
Mack1

SABL

I am showing a 20a fuse, but not the fuse #. My book does not show a Power Dist Center under the hood.... shows for the '96's...sounds about right. Let me see what I can find.

SABL

Been over 1yr since I have tried my scanner.

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supernewb

I would use a multi-meter or a test light and test your ignition switch itself. Sounds like it could be bad. Pink is ignition and second ignition will be either white or pink/white (most likely white). They're roughly 12ga wires and are very easy to get to under the dash at the junction block just above the brake pedal (they will be in the center of the block and will be among the thickest wires going into the block along with all the other wires from the ignition switch. Those are the only two that the vehicle needs to see power up for there to be spark and fuel. If either of those two don't energize when you turn the key to run, and all your fuses are good, your ignition switch is bad.

cardoc

Hi everyone
Sure sounds like you lost a circuit powering the pump,coil etc.With the key on check for 12 volts at the coil positive.If dead look for a popped fuse,fusible link bad ign switch etc.You don't happen to have a security system in it? There will be a lot of changes between the '91 and '95 wiring but the same principles will apply.As always start with the basics with attention to detail and symptons.
Good luck,Cardoc