tempsdental

Help!
I have a 95 Probe Gt. Love the car when it runs. Thinking about buying a towtruck. This thing is driving me crazy. It has to do with the electrical system. 1st thing, When it rains it will not start. Once it dries up it will start. But if it is running before it starts raining it will stay running. I've replaced the plug wires, dist. cap, distribitor, crankshaft posision sensor. Still does the same thing. Also once the battery voltage drops the starter motor will turn the engine over even when the key is off. I have to disconnect the battery when the car is going to be sitting for a long time. Now the new thing with it is that when the car is started I can smell a burning smell comming from the alternater. This thing has been in the shop way to much. And nobody seems to know whats wrong, they think they found the problem then it happens again. New battery, alternaters, starters, Ignition switch, Engine was replaced. Could this be a problem with the computer? 1 more question. why do they use the resistants in the starter motor windings for the blower motor controller?

qldit

Good Afternoon tempsdental, it is apparent that you may have a number of problems.

The alternator smell of burning is rather dire, that would indicate it most likely has an internal problem.

Your mention of all these replaced items sounds odd, for your information it is quite common for "after-market" parts to be inferior and commonly cause problems.

I have seen some vehicles where the bonnet webbing (the reinforcing ribbing on the underside of the hood) actually collects condensation or water and actually allows it to drip into the high voltage lead areas, you might check if that is a possibility. Even placing a waterproof sheet over the engine will allow this to be confirmed if it is the problem, but if you try it, make sure you remove it before starting the motor.
It only takes a few droplets of water to absorb the electrical spark energy.

Keep a can of RP-7 or CRC and regularly spray all the high-voltage components and leads.

The problem of the engine starter motor remaining engaged is typical of an after-market starter motor, the toothed dog remains engaged and holds the starter solenoid contacts physically energised. (not electrically from the ignition circuit)

I prefer to use parts from wrecking yards to avoid this kind of thing.

I would suspect that the starter-motor remaining engaged has loaded the electrical system and overloaded the alternator for too long a period which has possibly cooked it's windings.
It is also common in these kinds of circumstances for the alternator rectifying diodes (in the alternator) to overheat and breakdown so that when the engine is switched off the battery discharges back through the alternator worsening this effect.
If you have had any occasion where you have returned to the vehicle and found the battery completely dead flat this would also point to this possibility.

I doubt this kind of problem would involve the computer, but if water were leaking into it that could have involvement with the start problem.
Inspect the computer mounting and possibly consider placing a waterproof thing over it for evaluation.

Sorry can't answer the question about starter motor resistance.
Is that a super charger you mention or a heater blower?

I do feel that a trip to the auto wreckers for another original type starter motor and an alternator may help clear your problem. I personally hate using the cheap aftermarket components because they often cause more problems that you are trying to fix.
But I imagine you would have some kind of warranty involvement so that requires consideration.

These "chain of events" kinds of problems are not uncommon.

Others will have different ideas.

Cheers, qldit.

tempsdental

Sounds like a plan. Starter motor does sound like the place to start. Wonder if anybody makes a shim kit for it? I'll change the starter with a wrecking yard unit. The last two were new, only because of the placement of the starter (a pain to get to) Didn't want to put in to find out there was a problem with unit. Then I'll replace the alt. In my post I talked about it not starting when it rained. But this is not always the case. Sometimes in the morning it will not start but closer to midday it will. Everything checks out at the dist. connection according to the manual but it has no fire at the dist. I will remove material under hood to see if that helps any. What about leaving it off all together? Thanks very much for the sugestions. I not giving up yet. Heater blower motor.

qldit

G'day tempsdental, From my experience the insulation under the bonnet wasn't really the problem so much as the ribs, on one vehicle (a Toyota Corolla) the ribs actually created a situation where they collected moisture and allowed it to drip directly onto the distributor.
I was amazed to find this was the case, and eventually taped over the hole so that it dripped a bit further away in a non-problem causing area.
Removing the under bonnet insulation may increase condensation effect.

It may be easier to try a waterproof cover over the engine to evaluate what is happening and keep an eye on it for and evidence of water droplets.

Shimming the starter is not really an option, but I have "puffed" powdered graphite into the ring gear teeth with the starter removed and found that provided reasonable success, but it is not neccessarily a permanent fix. I suspect your problem is due to the actual cut of the dog gear teeth. (on the starter motor) The after market replacement units seem to commonly suffer from this problem.
Powdered Graphite is available at most motor supermarkets and has uses for all manner of things, especially key locks, sticky window runners and things like that.

So far as I am aware the heater blower motor should have nothing to do with the starter motor, it is possible there may be a fusible link mounted on the starter motor as a convenience that is powering that device, but that would only be using the common positive battery lead as a mount point.
But I could be wrong.

It may be worth mounting a spark plug (using a cable tie etc) to a convenient position on an engine lift point or wherever, so that you might observe whether spark is available by connecting a spark lead from one of the cylinders to it when the problem is apparent and then you can observe if there actually is any spark.
It is not a good idea to disconnect a spark plug lead and hold it away from the metal engine because it often results in no spark path and the spark can be reflected into the coil and either arc internally or damage the driving module, this is one of those "once bitten, twice shy" kinds of things and some modules are very expensive.

It sounds like your starting problem has created a domino effect!!

Cheers, qldit.

tempsdental

Thanks again.

The reason I was asking about the relationship between the starter motor and the heater blower motor is as follows.


I'll start in the middle part of the problem as I bought the car used. Don't what happen to it before I owned it.

Daughter was driving, car stopped running. she tried to restart, fried the starter, replaced starter, tried to start, fried new starter, looked closer at problem, found voltage at starter with key in off position. a little over 11 volts. Battery showed full charge. Thought there was a problem in the wiring. Put a quick disconnector to diconnect battery so we would not fry the second new starter. Worked fine, and it's a good thing we did this because the same thing happened, but we caught it before the starter fried. Looked a little closer, found that engine was seized. just outa the blueit locked up, no warning signs. So we replaced engine. everything looked good, but we still had the voltage at the starter. Something didn't seem right. So we ran a wire to bypass the ingnition switch. think it was the ignition switch. Works great. No voltage at starter. starts great, run great. BUT, Blower motor doesn't work. Crap, what now. Looking for the problem in the heating and air for days relays fuses, wires, nothing looked to be wrong. The only thing that was different was the bypass wire. After checking out the heating and airconditiong cuircut in the manual we noticed they showed the starter motor in this cuircut. WHAT, NOWAY, Yep. Took the bypass wire and reconnected it as it was in the begining. Guess what? Blower motor works. Now everything is fine except for the voltage at the starter solonoid. It's still there. It seems that without this voltage at the solonoid present the heater blower motor will not work. They have to be using the resistance in the starter motor for the blower controller. This is where we thought this voltage could be energizing the starter solonoid with the key off. And also causing the battery to discharge when the car was not being driven. And even the starter to turn the engine over even with the key off. We even replaced the ingition switch thinking maybe it was the reason for the voltage at the solonoid. But there is still this voltage at the solonoid. We assumed at this piont it was normal. But don't know for sure. Can't get an answer even from the ford dealers service dept. How would you go about checking to see if the gears are engaged with the car running? Because when it's running it sounds normal. And isn't there an overruning clutch built into the starter to keep this very thing from happening? Thanks again, Brian

qldit

Good Evening Brian, that sounds awfully strange to me, I have no explanation why the blower might be connected to the starter motor solenoid circuit, but it is possible that the current supplied through the blower circuit could cause the starter to remain engaged in certain circumstances.
With a starter solenoid the intitial current required to make the moving section (armature) move is relatively substantial but when it is in the activated position the current is considerably less, so you will appreciate that a trivial current may hold it in that position.
But that could cause the battery to flatten over time if that were the case as you suggest.

Essentially the starter motor s/solenoid circuit in an auto should follow from the ignition switch start contact, then to a park / neutral switch then to the s/solenoid, in a manual it should go from the ignition start switch contact to a neutral gear shift switch (if fitted) and then to the s/solenoid.
In some manual vehicles a clutch switch may take the place of a neutral switch.

The blower circuit should remain part of the accessory circuit with no start circuit involvement whatsoever.

What happens to that voltage appearing at the solenoid terminal connection if the blower is switched off?

I will ask someone else if they may have struck this, it really makes no sense at all.

Quite obviously the blower circuit is looking for a path to ground, but it certainly is illogical.

I will repost if I can find something on it, meantime I would suggest using that bypass you mentioned and disabling the blower.

Having no clutch on a starter motor sounds a bit poor, I thought that idea was originated by Ford and that it was a good idea.

I wish I had that schematic diagram here.

Having that voltage appearing with the ignition turned off sounds as if the accessory power which would normally power the blower is permanently available, that is another oddity.

Cheers, qldit.

tempsdental

Hello,
If you send me your e-mail address i will send you a photo of the wiring diagram.


Thanks, Again Brian

tempsdental

mine is tempsdental[at]aol.com. That way yours wont be posted. Thanks Brian

qldit

Thanks Brian, email sent.
You might edit your last post if possible and remove your email address.
Cheers, qldit.

jaggerwild

Hello tempsdental!
There is a wire that always has power at the starter, the starter wire doesn't but there is one that does always show power at the starter hence when you energize the start wire this wire (the constant) supplies the voltage needed to start the car.
This constant wire doesn't draw on the battery, as it's always there. Not to say that something in the system couldn't be drawing current. But the starter doesn't draw till the "start wire" is energized (or under load).

Hope we helped you, if so let us know.

tempsdental

Hello,
I should have posted that there are 2 wires with voltage, The main one from the battery which should always have voltage and does, But the 1 I'm talking about actually is connected to the soloniod, This 1 also shows voltage all the time but it is reduced to around 11 1/2 volts. It is the one that comes from the ignition switch. It shows this voltage even with the key off. ignition switch was replaced thinking this to be the problem. I wasn't sure whether this voltage being present at all times was enough to energize the solinoid. And if not why is this voltage present? It does not affect the way the car starts, but have noticed that when battery is low and you try and start. It will turn over but in event where it has rained and car does not start it will continue to turn over when the key is in the position. Strange. If the voltage is not supposed to present on the 2nd wire it seems that this would be the place to start.

Thanks Brian

What is tour thought on this.

qldit

Good Morning tempsdental, I have spoken to a couple of chaps about this voltage at the solenoid line and the only suggestion is that there may be some kind of ignition control module or circuit that is controlled by the ignition switch and possibly use a sense input from the solenoid circuit to inhibit those systems or the entire accessory system from operation when a start is attempted.
But this is a guess.

If that were the case you might appreciate that device is miswired or has a problem and is providing an erroneous voltage.

I have no circuit at this time for that machine.

Cheers, qldit.

marelee

I also have 95 Probe problems.. I have a window that refuses to come up. I have looked inside the panel and have a basic idea, but problems trying to get the window roller off. It appears that there is a wire attached to the inside that controls the up and down motion, but it also appears I will have to totally dismantel the interior of the door. Any hints on making this feat easier?

tempsdental

Hello, Not to sure about the window problem, but I have had the same with other cars. The window goes down fine but doesn't return up when button is pushed, it turns out that most of them have a spring assist to help them down. but doesn't help on thhe way up. The problem is the window motor most likely. But not to sure if this is how it works on the probe. I'll look in my book and let you know.

tempsdental

Still trying to fix my problem on my probe. Gave it a break over winter. I think that the next thing I try is going to be removing all fuses but the ones needed to run car and replace one at a time to see if I can find out when the battery voltage starts to drop.

tempsdental

And if that doesn't work I'll roll it off a cliff.

tempsdental

Hey, About the window motor. I explained it to you backwards. The widows weight helps it down. and the counter balance spring helps it up, but if the motors bad the spring will not help it up. and it may not have a problem going down even if the motor is bad.