Have Extra Internal Hard Drive, Want to install Ubuntu

SelfadmitedGeek · 04-20-2009, 11:48 AM

Hey,

Got a 40gb extra (have a main 250gb) internal hard drive and was wondering if I could install Ubuntu on it. If yes, how should I go about doing this?

My second question would be could I F12 into that other hard drive or do I need to go into Setup to change which hard drive boots first?

Thanks!
Self

Rome5 · 04-20-2009, 06:26 PM

The 250gb holds another OS? You could use the F12 option and select the drive to boot from, but a better solution might be allow GRUB (a linux bootloader) to handle it for you off the 40gb drive.

First you'll want to change the boot order in BIOS so that the 40gb hard drive boots first (has priority). Then use the Ubuntu CD to install Ubuntu. During the setup phase, GRUB will be installed and it will automatically install to the drive with boot priority (the 40gb drive). You won't have to make any changes.

Simply leave the 40gb hdd first in the boot order and you'll continue to have a dual boot system. If for any reason you want to get rid of Ubuntu, you can simply switch the boot order back to the 250gb drive and you'll be back to the way it is now.

**Bartender** · 04-20-2009, 07:57 PM

I think Rome may have mis-read the original post. Or I'm mis-reading it!
I think you're saying that the 250 GB is the drive that's running Windows. And you're thinking about installing Ubuntu to the smaller 40 GB drive?

Does F12 stop the boot process and give you a list of bootable devices? If so, I'd suggest installing ALL of Ubuntu to the second drive. Leave the primary drive untouched.

Do you have a picture in your mind of how the Linux bootloader works? The typical way it's done (the default for Ubuntu) is to allow the bootloader to tweak the Windows Master Boot Record (MBR). The MBR is a small packet of data at the very beginning of the Windows drive. If the MBR is corrupted, Windows gets lost and can't boot. The Linux bootloader (there are several but GRUB is the most popular one) tweaks the Windows MBR so that Windows still sees an intact MBR, but you get the choice of which OS to boot to.

If you don't manually stop the process, Ubuntu tweaks the MBR for you during installation without asking.

It doesn't matter if you install Linux to the same drive as Windows or to a second drive, as you're proposing. If you allow the Linux bootloader to install in the default manner it will tweak the MBR, and it will keep track of the fact that Linux is on the second drive. You still get the choice of which OS to boot. Just as you would if both OS'es were on the same drive.

One problem with the default method - if you decide you want to uninstall Ubuntu, or remove that second drive, the Windows MBR stops working and you have to repair it.

If you want to use the F12 key, then it's important to realize that Ubuntu must be told to install all of GRUB to the second hard drive. I haven't installed Ubuntu in a few weeks, but I'm pretty sure the option to change where the bootloader installs is on the very last page of the Ubuntu install process, just before you tell it to go do its thing. Could someone please confirm that for me?

If the second drive is the slave, or recognized in BIOS as the second drive, you would tell Ubuntu to install the bootloader to hd1, not hd0. Unfortunately, GRUB has its own terminology. hd0 is the root of the first drive, hd1 the second drive, etc. hd0,1 would be the first partition of the first drive...oh, yeah, it can get very confusing. These terms are only used when you're dealing with GRUB.

This is scary the first time because you'll be worried about ruining your Windows drive. If you have another spare drive, remove your main drive, plunk in the spare drives, install Windows or Linux or what have to the first one, then plug in the second drive and install Ubuntu to it and watch for the bootloader option. sda is the first drive and sdb is the second drive.

Rome5 · 04-21-2009, 12:02 AM

We have two separate hard drives, one of which contains Windows (we believe) and the other you're wanting to install Ubuntu on? I think I got that.

Still, there's no reason to overwrite the windows mbr. You'll only cause yourself more work and you also risk Windows 'fixing' it's own mbr - which can happen. At that point, you'd no longer be able to boot Ubuntu without reinstalling GRUB. Save yourself the extra trouble.

Switch the boot order in BIOS (don't rely on F12). Set the 40gb hard drive to boot first and the 250gb hard drive to boot second. Now insert the Ubuntu live CD and install Ubuntu on the 40gb hard drive. It should be listed as 'sda,' but you can verify by the size of the drive (it will list 40gb). Let GRUB install itself as it will, by default, install to the hard drive with boot priority. In your case, that would the 40gb hard drive or (hd0). Once it's installed and you go to reboot, you don't have to tweak the boot order or use F12. Let it boot from the 40gb hard drive and you'll be good to go.

IF, at any time you want to get rid of Ubuntu = easy. Simply switch the boot order so that the 250gb drive is first and the 40gb drive is second. Windows will load as usual (no sign of GRUB).

It's actually not recommended to overwrite a windows mbr with GRUB.

SelfadmitedGeek · 04-21-2009, 06:33 AM

In answer to your question, the 250gb hdd has Windows installed, while the 40gb also has it installed. We got the 40gb with the computer, bought a 250gb b/c the 40gb was filling up, and copied the files from one hdd to the other. I want to clean the 40gb and install Ubuntu on it.

I don't plan to use Ubuntu for anything big, just a change of OS and self enjoyment.

Rome5 suggested what I was already thinking, but I wanted to make sure.

Anything else before I attempt this??

Self

**Bartender** · 04-21-2009, 12:42 PM

I've never done it the way Rome describes, but sounds like a valid plan.

Rome, why do you recommend staying away from the F12 option? It's not always F12, but you know what I mean - instead of going all the way into BIOS and changing boot order, you just tap the key at the right time and choose.

Rome5 · 04-22-2009, 02:22 AM

Self: Just be sure of which disk you're installing Ubuntu on and the rest is pretty much cake. You'll be asked how you want the drive partitioned; whether to use the whole drive or manually partition; up to you, but that's really the only input that's required.

After reboot, you'll be greeted with GRUB's menu (as bartender explained). Ubuntu will be set to default, so it will be highlighted and will boot on it's own if time expires (you'll see the timer). If you want to change the default OS to windows or edit the timer, just post back one you're up and running. That's not a big deal to do.

Bartender: I don't think there's a real advantage to avoiding F12, aside from the additional step you'd be taking to boot Ubuntu. You change the boot order once and don't have to deal with it again unless getting rid of Linux. Though, if Ubuntu is rarely being used; F12 might be just fine.

SelfadmitedGeek · 04-22-2009, 07:28 AM

So, switch drives in Bios, then install.

Keep 40gb as main and it should give me the option of booting into either Ubuntu or Windows? or do I need to switch the Bios everytime I want to change OS?

Either way, I don't mind.

I'm gonna wait a couple of days, since Ubuntu 9.04 comes out April 23.

Rome5 · 04-22-2009, 05:44 PM

The first part's correct; you switch the boot order prior to installing Ubuntu and then leave it (won't need to change the boot order again). GRUB will be installed on the 40gb drive and will allow you to boot either Windows or Ubuntu from that drive.

**Bartender** · 04-24-2009, 07:50 AM

Hey there, Rome -
Sorry for questioning you back in Post #3. What you suggest seems like a very straightforward way of dealing with the "two drives" issue. I don't know why I'd never heard of it before!!

Self -
The BIOS runs off a small chip soldered to the motherboard. That small chip is powered by the coin battery you'll find somewhere on your motherboard.
When you turn your PC on, it goes into BIOS first, looking for information on where to find a bootable device, how to run the USB ports, etc.
If you strip all hard drives out of your computer, so there's no operating system at all, BIOS will still function. It's important to understand that BIOS is completely independent of the operating system or systems.

So, if you:
1) Set the PC up like Rome suggests, with the Ubuntu hard drive physically connected as the primary drive and the Windows drive physically connected as the secondary drive (this is more critical with a PATA system that SATA),
2) Go into BIOS and make the Ubuntu drive the "first bootable device",
3) Install Ubuntu to that first drive,

You should be good to go. As Rome says, GRUB will not install any part of itself to the Windows drive so you avoid those potential hassles.

Rome, you're saying that Self would still get the 10 second GRUB screen, giving him a choice of operating systems? Or will the PC boot right to Ubuntu with just the 3 second wait period?

Rome5 · 04-25-2009, 01:04 AM

Bartender: No worries. I prefer a system running off the HDD rather than a live cd, so I have a minimal arch install on my backup drive (2nd drive) just in case my primary drive fails. GRUB's installed to both MBR's and switching the boot order works like a charm. Granted, self will be working with Windows, but makes no difference.

As far GRUB, he'll get the same GRUB menu and 10 second timer (must be Ubuntu's default?) as usual. It will act that same as if it had been installed to the Windows MBR.

**Done_Fishin** · 04-25-2009, 06:56 AM

@ Bartender .. that's the way I run my set-ups using two drives .. it's a lot safer having independant drives and if you also have an F8 option or Bootmenu option , you can also select which drive to boot without going into BIOS at all .

**Bartender** · 04-25-2009, 07:35 AM

Hi, Rome -
Yeah, ten seconds is the GRUB default. I plugged in an abbreviated version of my GRUB boot menu at Post #26 of this thread
[SOLVED] Best flavor linux for a noob? BASH for begginers?
The "timeout" line can be changed to anything. Well, anything but zero!

Done -
I agree with you 100% re: keeping the Windows OS and Linux OS completely separate when using two drives. But I'd been doing it the hard way, installing Ubuntu to the second drive and making sure that GRUB didn't try to install stage 1 to the MBR. Will have to try the "Ubuntu drive first" method next time!

04-20-2009, 11:48 AM	#1 (permalink)
SelfadmitedGeek Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 21 OS: XP SP3, Mac OS X 10, Ubuntu 9.04	Have Extra Internal Hard Drive, Want to install Ubuntu Hey, Got a 40gb extra (have a main 250gb) internal hard drive and was wondering if I could install Ubuntu on it. If yes, how should I go about doing this? My second question would be could I F12 into that other hard drive or do I need to go into Setup to change which hard drive boots first? Thanks! Self __________________ I am a Geek and Proud of it!

04-20-2009, 06:26 PM	#2 (permalink)
Rome5 Alternative Computing Team Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Denver.CO Posts: 311 OS: Arch linux	Re: Have Extra Internal Hard Drive, Want to install Ubuntu The 250gb holds another OS? You could use the F12 option and select the drive to boot from, but a better solution might be allow GRUB (a linux bootloader) to handle it for you off the 40gb drive. First you'll want to change the boot order in BIOS so that the 40gb hard drive boots first (has priority). Then use the Ubuntu CD to install Ubuntu. During the setup phase, GRUB will be installed and it will automatically install to the drive with boot priority (the 40gb drive). You won't have to make any changes. Simply leave the 40gb hdd first in the boot order and you'll continue to have a dual boot system. If for any reason you want to get rid of Ubuntu, you can simply switch the boot order back to the 250gb drive and you'll be back to the way it is now. __________________ Arch64 ~ PekWM

04-20-2009, 07:57 PM	#3 (permalink)
Bartender Mentally divergent Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Chehalis, WA, USA Posts: 1,285 OS: W2K, Ubuntu 8.04	Re: Have Extra Internal Hard Drive, Want to install Ubuntu I think Rome may have mis-read the original post. Or I'm mis-reading it! I think you're saying that the 250 GB is the drive that's running Windows. And you're thinking about installing Ubuntu to the smaller 40 GB drive? Does F12 stop the boot process and give you a list of bootable devices? If so, I'd suggest installing ALL of Ubuntu to the second drive. Leave the primary drive untouched. Do you have a picture in your mind of how the Linux bootloader works? The typical way it's done (the default for Ubuntu) is to allow the bootloader to tweak the Windows Master Boot Record (MBR). The MBR is a small packet of data at the very beginning of the Windows drive. If the MBR is corrupted, Windows gets lost and can't boot. The Linux bootloader (there are several but GRUB is the most popular one) tweaks the Windows MBR so that Windows still sees an intact MBR, but you get the choice of which OS to boot to. If you don't manually stop the process, Ubuntu tweaks the MBR for you during installation without asking. It doesn't matter if you install Linux to the same drive as Windows or to a second drive, as you're proposing. If you allow the Linux bootloader to install in the default manner it will tweak the MBR, and it will keep track of the fact that Linux is on the second drive. You still get the choice of which OS to boot. Just as you would if both OS'es were on the same drive. One problem with the default method - if you decide you want to uninstall Ubuntu, or remove that second drive, the Windows MBR stops working and you have to repair it. If you want to use the F12 key, then it's important to realize that Ubuntu must be told to install all of GRUB to the second hard drive. I haven't installed Ubuntu in a few weeks, but I'm pretty sure the option to change where the bootloader installs is on the very last page of the Ubuntu install process, just before you tell it to go do its thing. Could someone please confirm that for me? If the second drive is the slave, or recognized in BIOS as the second drive, you would tell Ubuntu to install the bootloader to hd1, not hd0. Unfortunately, GRUB has its own terminology. hd0 is the root of the first drive, hd1 the second drive, etc. hd0,1 would be the first partition of the first drive...oh, yeah, it can get very confusing. These terms are only used when you're dealing with GRUB. This is scary the first time because you'll be worried about ruining your Windows drive. If you have another spare drive, remove your main drive, plunk in the spare drives, install Windows or Linux or what have to the first one, then plug in the second drive and install Ubuntu to it and watch for the bootloader option. sda is the first drive and sdb is the second drive. Last edited by Bartender; 04-20-2009 at 07:59 PM.

04-21-2009, 12:02 AM	#4 (permalink)
Rome5 Alternative Computing Team Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Denver.CO Posts: 311 OS: Arch linux	Re: Have Extra Internal Hard Drive, Want to install Ubuntu We have two separate hard drives, one of which contains Windows (we believe) and the other you're wanting to install Ubuntu on? I think I got that. Still, there's no reason to overwrite the windows mbr. You'll only cause yourself more work and you also risk Windows 'fixing' it's own mbr - which can happen. At that point, you'd no longer be able to boot Ubuntu without reinstalling GRUB. Save yourself the extra trouble. Switch the boot order in BIOS (don't rely on F12). Set the 40gb hard drive to boot first and the 250gb hard drive to boot second. Now insert the Ubuntu live CD and install Ubuntu on the 40gb hard drive. It should be listed as 'sda,' but you can verify by the size of the drive (it will list 40gb). Let GRUB install itself as it will, by default, install to the hard drive with boot priority. In your case, that would the 40gb hard drive or (hd0). Once it's installed and you go to reboot, you don't have to tweak the boot order or use F12. Let it boot from the 40gb hard drive and you'll be good to go. IF, at any time you want to get rid of Ubuntu = easy. Simply switch the boot order so that the 250gb drive is first and the 40gb drive is second. Windows will load as usual (no sign of GRUB). It's actually not recommended to overwrite a windows mbr with GRUB. __________________ Arch64 ~ PekWM

04-21-2009, 06:33 AM	#5 (permalink)
SelfadmitedGeek Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 21 OS: XP SP3, Mac OS X 10, Ubuntu 9.04	Re: Have Extra Internal Hard Drive, Want to install Ubuntu In answer to your question, the 250gb hdd has Windows installed, while the 40gb also has it installed. We got the 40gb with the computer, bought a 250gb b/c the 40gb was filling up, and copied the files from one hdd to the other. I want to clean the 40gb and install Ubuntu on it. I don't plan to use Ubuntu for anything big, just a change of OS and self enjoyment. Rome5 suggested what I was already thinking, but I wanted to make sure. Anything else before I attempt this?? Self __________________ I am a Geek and Proud of it!

04-21-2009, 12:42 PM	#6 (permalink)
Bartender Mentally divergent Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Chehalis, WA, USA Posts: 1,285 OS: W2K, Ubuntu 8.04	Re: Have Extra Internal Hard Drive, Want to install Ubuntu I've never done it the way Rome describes, but sounds like a valid plan. Rome, why do you recommend staying away from the F12 option? It's not always F12, but you know what I mean - instead of going all the way into BIOS and changing boot order, you just tap the key at the right time and choose.

04-22-2009, 02:22 AM	#7 (permalink)
Rome5 Alternative Computing Team Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Denver.CO Posts: 311 OS: Arch linux	Re: Have Extra Internal Hard Drive, Want to install Ubuntu Self: Just be sure of which disk you're installing Ubuntu on and the rest is pretty much cake. You'll be asked how you want the drive partitioned; whether to use the whole drive or manually partition; up to you, but that's really the only input that's required. After reboot, you'll be greeted with GRUB's menu (as bartender explained). Ubuntu will be set to default, so it will be highlighted and will boot on it's own if time expires (you'll see the timer). If you want to change the default OS to windows or edit the timer, just post back one you're up and running. That's not a big deal to do. Bartender: I don't think there's a real advantage to avoiding F12, aside from the additional step you'd be taking to boot Ubuntu. You change the boot order once and don't have to deal with it again unless getting rid of Linux. Though, if Ubuntu is rarely being used; F12 might be just fine. __________________ Arch64 ~ PekWM

04-22-2009, 07:28 AM	#8 (permalink)
SelfadmitedGeek Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 21 OS: XP SP3, Mac OS X 10, Ubuntu 9.04	Re: Have Extra Internal Hard Drive, Want to install Ubuntu So, switch drives in Bios, then install. Keep 40gb as main and it should give me the option of booting into either Ubuntu or Windows? or do I need to switch the Bios everytime I want to change OS? Either way, I don't mind. I'm gonna wait a couple of days, since Ubuntu 9.04 comes out April 23. __________________ I am a Geek and Proud of it! Last edited by SelfadmitedGeek; 04-22-2009 at 07:30 AM.

04-22-2009, 05:44 PM	#9 (permalink)
Rome5 Alternative Computing Team Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Denver.CO Posts: 311 OS: Arch linux	Re: Have Extra Internal Hard Drive, Want to install Ubuntu The first part's correct; you switch the boot order prior to installing Ubuntu and then leave it (won't need to change the boot order again). GRUB will be installed on the 40gb drive and will allow you to boot either Windows or Ubuntu from that drive. __________________ Arch64 ~ PekWM

04-24-2009, 07:50 AM	#10 (permalink)
Bartender Mentally divergent Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Chehalis, WA, USA Posts: 1,285 OS: W2K, Ubuntu 8.04	Re: Have Extra Internal Hard Drive, Want to install Ubuntu Hey there, Rome - Sorry for questioning you back in Post #3. What you suggest seems like a very straightforward way of dealing with the "two drives" issue. I don't know why I'd never heard of it before!! Self - The BIOS runs off a small chip soldered to the motherboard. That small chip is powered by the coin battery you'll find somewhere on your motherboard. When you turn your PC on, it goes into BIOS first, looking for information on where to find a bootable device, how to run the USB ports, etc. If you strip all hard drives out of your computer, so there's no operating system at all, BIOS will still function. It's important to understand that BIOS is completely independent of the operating system or systems. So, if you: 1) Set the PC up like Rome suggests, with the Ubuntu hard drive physically connected as the primary drive and the Windows drive physically connected as the secondary drive (this is more critical with a PATA system that SATA), 2) Go into BIOS and make the Ubuntu drive the "first bootable device", 3) Install Ubuntu to that first drive, You should be good to go. As Rome says, GRUB will not install any part of itself to the Windows drive so you avoid those potential hassles. Rome, you're saying that Self would still get the 10 second GRUB screen, giving him a choice of operating systems? Or will the PC boot right to Ubuntu with just the 3 second wait period?

04-25-2009, 01:04 AM	#11 (permalink)
Rome5 Alternative Computing Team Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Denver.CO Posts: 311 OS: Arch linux	Re: Have Extra Internal Hard Drive, Want to install Ubuntu Bartender: No worries. I prefer a system running off the HDD rather than a live cd, so I have a minimal arch install on my backup drive (2nd drive) just in case my primary drive fails. GRUB's installed to both MBR's and switching the boot order works like a charm. Granted, self will be working with Windows, but makes no difference. As far GRUB, he'll get the same GRUB menu and 10 second timer (must be Ubuntu's default?) as usual. It will act that same as if it had been installed to the Windows MBR. __________________ Arch64 ~ PekWM Last edited by Rome5; 04-25-2009 at 01:15 AM.

04-25-2009, 06:56 AM	#12 (permalink)
Done_Fishin Moderator Hardware Team Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Brit living in Greece Posts: 7,521 OS: WinME, WinXP Pro SP3, Win7 Beta, Ubuntu 9.04 & Netbook Remix & CD2USB, Mepis 6.5, Fedora 10 My System	Re: Have Extra Internal Hard Drive, Want to install Ubuntu @ Bartender .. that's the way I run my set-ups using two drives .. it's a lot safer having independant drives and if you also have an F8 option or Bootmenu option , you can also select which drive to boot without going into BIOS at all . __________________ . . I'm not old!! I'm age impaired .. D_F I DON'T PLAY GAMES How to mark your thread as solved HDD DIAG UTILS TSF's Photographer's Corner

04-25-2009, 07:35 AM	#13 (permalink)
Bartender Mentally divergent Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Chehalis, WA, USA Posts: 1,285 OS: W2K, Ubuntu 8.04	Re: Have Extra Internal Hard Drive, Want to install Ubuntu Hi, Rome - Yeah, ten seconds is the GRUB default. I plugged in an abbreviated version of my GRUB boot menu at Post #26 of this thread [SOLVED] Best flavor linux for a noob? BASH for begginers? The "timeout" line can be changed to anything. Well, anything but zero! Done - I agree with you 100% re: keeping the Windows OS and Linux OS completely separate when using two drives. But I'd been doing it the hard way, installing Ubuntu to the second drive and making sure that GRUB didn't try to install stage 1 to the MBR. Will have to try the "Ubuntu drive first" method next time!